INTERVIEW With KERMIT CARL SANDERS CONDUCTED BY J. R. ASH KENNESAW COLLEGE ORAL HISTORY PROJECT

Transcription

1 INTERVIEW With KERMIT CRL NDER CONDUCTED BY J. R. H for the KENNEW COLLEGE ORL HITORY PROJECT Monday, pril 23, 1979

2 TBLE OF CONTENT I. ERLY CREER 1. Birth in Cobb County 1 B. Term in Office of heriff Thoma ander, Kermit ' Father 1 C. Growing Up in t he Jail D. The Firt rret Made by Kermit ander E. Chaing Vehicle Loaded with Illegal Whikey F. The Fee ytem and Fine for Whikey Hauler G. Cobb County in the Early Twentieth Century 1. Population and hopping rea 2. Farming and Taking Crop to Market. H. Decription of the Old Jail I. Type of Prioner J. Communication Before Radio K. Variou Job in the 1930'; Military ervice in World War I. 9 II. EXPERIENCE IN LW ENFORCEMENT 9. Campaigning for Office. 9 B. The Lat Raid on a till C. Other till D. Relative in Police Work E. Fale rret Inurance.. F. The Blue Ridge Circuit G. chooling H. ervice heriff I. J. K. L. M. 1. Turning the Detective Over to the County Police 2. Hour and alary Growth of the heriff' Office. 4. Living tandard of a Policeman' Family in the Early Twentieth Century 5. Radio in Car Dutie of the heriff Death in Office of Thoma ander Combatting Protitution Working in Car Without Heater Feeding Prioner ttempted Jailbreak

3 iii N. ctivitie of Thoma ander Between Term in Office Working for the County Pol ice The Mule Buine Big Farm in the County. 18 P. Cobb County Road 18 Q. Travelling a heriff Going to London Picking Up Prioner i n the United tate.. 20

4 Kenneaw College Oral Hitory Project Interview with Kermit Carl ander Conducted by J. R. h Monday, pril 23, 1979 Mr. ander wa heriff of Cobb County from 1957 until 1976 when he retired from offi ce after erving Cobb County for 20 year. Prior to being elected heriff, Mr. ander erved with hi father a a deputy heriff. = ander = h Mr. ander, when were you born? I wa born the 30th of May, Where were you born? I wa born on utell Road, and I moved to town when I wa about four year old. My father became a city policeman. He worked for a dollar a day. From the city, he went to. work for Mr. Ed wanon who wa the heriff of the county at the time. Thi wa in He erved two term a a deputy heriff under Ed wanon. Mr. wanon did not ee fit to run again for heriff and my father ran and wa elected. He erved two term and went out of office in He wa out of office for twelve year and ran again in He erved one year and three month and died in office on pril 13, Harry croggin took over the office of heriff for the balance of that term and wa re- elected for two more term. I ran againt Mr. croggin and wa elected in 1956 and took office i n 1957, and I erved until o your father erved for two term a heriff. I that correct? Two term, two different time with a twelve year interval. How long wa the term of the heriff back then? Four year. You were more or le raied around the jail then, weren't you? 1

5 2 Ye, I moved to the jail when I wa ten year old. My brother and I had to fire tfie furnace to keep the prioner warm. Back in thoe day we did not have many prioner. We had anywhere from one to fifteen. In thoe day, eventy-five percent of them were black. We did not have t oo much crime back then. We had an occaional homicide or burglary, but the main thing the heriff did back in thoe day wa to try to keep the whikey buine down. Do you remember a lot of whikey till back then? Ye, I have been on a lot of raid on whikey till. I remember the firt man I ran down on foot. I wa ixteen and a half year old. My daddy and I and Roy wanon (one of the deputie) were out on Johnon Ferry Road; and back in thoe day, it wan ' t paved. We would jut pull acro the road and block it. My daddy aid, "You get under the wheel; and when I flah my light, you pull acro the road and block it." It wa night and he wa carrying a flahlight. Papa flahed the light, and here came a car down the road, He came right up to my car and to the right and jumped out and ran. My daddy came down and handed me the gun and flahlight and aid, "Catch him on. " I ran him about a quarter of a mile and kept the flahlight on him. I wa young and a bit on the cary ide. I caught him and brought him back in. We brought him into the jail. Hi name wa mith; and he aid, "Mr. Tom, how about letting me get omething to eat before you l ock me up. " o he t ol d 'Mr. wanon to take him up there and get him omething to eat. We took him up to the retaurant. He wa itting there eating; and he aid, ''Roy, who wa that fellow that outran me and caught me? He ure could run." Roy aid, "That' him itting over there (pointing to ander). 11 He threw hi knife and fork down and aid, "You mean to tell me I let that young kid catch me!" I gue that incident et me afire. I thought more of law enforcement than anything ele. My father wa not in good health, and I quit chool to work with him. I only had one year of high chool at Marietta High. You went to Marietta High? Ye. I quit and went to work with my daddy regularly then, chaing whikey. We caught thouand and thouand of gallon of whikey. It would be hard to etimate. Back in thoe day we caught a lot of "red" whikey, which wa expenive whikey. It wa coming from Florida and going to Chicago. We caught a number of l Capone' car. I know John Hood, who worked with me from 1928 to 1932, helped me a lot. We would it in front of the courthoue; and a car would come by; and we could tell it had a load of whikey becaue it had addle pring. There were little bump in front of the courthoue, and they would give it away. We dicovered one car like thi, and we ran the driver up to Morgan Hill the other ide of Kenneaw and pulled him over. There were two men in a

6 3 brand new Nah Club Coupe. John aid, "Have not you got a load of red whikey on thi car?" He aid, "Yea." One man wa doing the driving and one wa doing the talking. He aid, "Ye, there i a load of red whikey; but you are not going to take it." nd when he aid that, he came up with a Burger and Riot hotgun. John told him we did not want to get killed over a load of red whikey. The man aid, "If you don't want to get killed, driver, drive on. " Well, we tarted chaing him and went through cworth, which wa the way you bad to go then. We topped at hipe' ervice tation and told them to call Carterville and tell heriff George Gaddi to block the road. We knew we could overtake him; but we did not; and he turned off to the left. We came back through the old road by llatoona and aw where he had turned off. We aw the car itting in a pine thi cket. John had a hotgun, and he aid he wa going to get in back of the tree and told me to go to cworth to get help. o I ran and jumped in the car; and a I wa going toward cworth, heriff Gaddi and hi men came up. They walked toward the man ' car, and he came out with a gun. They told him if he didn't drop it, they were going to kill him. He dropped the gun, and the driver jumped out and ran. I came back to town and got the dog, and we r an him eight mile acro the llatoona Mountain and caught him. l Capone never gave u any trouble. ome of hi driver told u if he got by with it, it wa good luck; but outide Chicago he woul d not have anything te do with law enforcement. We did catch ome big till. We caught one putting out five gallon a minute. One wa on ix Flag Road, whi ch ued to be Lower River Road. One of the bigget one we ever caught wa on pring Road in myrna. They had 1, 834 gallon of whikey made there. I gue all thee area were wooded and not built up a they are now. That ' right. I have had a lot of experience, I wa a pretty good car driver, and I remember going up tate 5 and would meet a car we upected of having a load of liquor on it. I would turn around real quick, and before I could get to them, they had bailed out and run, I gue there were a lot of good chae back in thoe day too. Ye, and I wa a pretty good driver. We had a Chryler Imperial and they knew they could not outrun the thing. nother experience wa right before Chritma, Cecil Bull ard and I were over on Bankhead Highway and aw thee car winding down, coming down into Mableton. We let out after them, and it wa the Hall boy. nd one wa blocking to keep u from catching the whikey. He did not want to let u by; o I took a running tart and bit the fender and he went out through the field. We went down to a little church, and the liquor car turned off to the right. It had been raining. I hit him in the back, and my

7 4 bumper caught under hi. It tore radiator up. He jumped out and ran about a quarter of a mile, and we caught him. He aid, "Hello Kermit. How are you doing?" I aid, "I don't know you. Who are you?" nd he aid, "My name i Green. '' I aid, 11 I don' t know a Green. 11 "No, " he aid, "my name i ltu Hall. I named my boy after you." He doe have a boy named Kermit who i a very prominent citizen in Marietta today. The Hall boy were good whikey people, you know. They weren't violent or anything. They were good people. Back in thoe day there wa a lot of good people who fooled with whikey. I know I have been with my daddy many time during the Depreion, and we would get a lot of report of people elling whikey. He would go to them and ay, "Now J oe, I know you are elling whikey; and if you don't quit, I am going to have to catch you. " nd if they didn't quit, he would catch them. He caught hi own brother that way. Hi brother tried to get him with a hotgun, and my daddy took it away from him. My daddy had to pay hi fine after catching him. Well, back then during the Depreion I gue that wa a good way to make a little money. Well, people were having an awful hard time. I gue my daddy let it go a long a he could, becaue he knew they needed the money. People elling whikey weren't violent peopl e. They were jut trying to make a living. Coure, I have alway aid (and my daddy did, too) that probation wa a failure. Coure, back in thoe day, the heriff wa under a "fee ytem." My daddy alway aid that wa bad, which wa later changed from fee ytem to alary. Explain the fee ytem to me. I'm not ure I know what it i. Well, if you caught a car and a man with a load of whikey, you got about 95% of what the car wa old back or what the car brought. big alary you would only get about 35% of it, which wa the fee ytem. If you caught a man drunk and fined him $30, your hare would probably be $11 or $12. Back in thoe day, you had to catch everybody you could to make a living out of it. o the fee ytem gave you an incentive to enforce the law. Judge John Wood helped my daddy out more than anybody I gue. He wa later to become a congreman. ometime we were catching three or four load of red whikey going north in a day. He lived at Canton. My daddy would call him and ay,"how do I fine them, and how much to get the car back?" o he finally told me daddy, "You fine them and tell them what the car i worth. Don't be bothering me about it." I don't gue it wa legal, but it worked all right. everal of the driver from Chicago would ak my daddy, "Row did you know we had a load of liquor on there?" He aid, "Little bird told me." One fellow aid, "I wih I could find that damn bird. I would kill it."

8 5 When you caught omeone hauling liquor, you would tell them what their car wa worth and theywould have to buy the car back from you? They could buy the car back. The judge would ign an order when he would come back to town. ee, we only had court here twice a year then, It wa a mall town and mall county. It wa the Blue Ridge Circuit. He would ign an order; and my daddy would let them have t he car back, ay for $500 to $1, ever what he thought the car wa worth, They were glad to buy it back and pay the fine and get gone. We at in front of the courthoue one day (John Hood and myelf) and a two and a half ton truck came by. It wa empty, apparently, but you could not ee through thoe beam; and I told John, "I believe that truck ' got a trap on it," John aid, "h, that truck don't have a trap on it. " He pulled down to Mr. Keefe' Cafe down on Cherokee treet and parked. I at t here; and the more I thought about it, I knew it did have. My daddy came out; and I aid, "That truck down there ha a t r ap on it." o Frank Wellu (who wa mayor pro tern of Marietta then) and my daddy got into the car, and John came running up. John aid, "That truck ain't got no trap on it. " Daddy aid, "It won't hurt to ee." We at there and waited for him to finih hi dinner, and he pulled off and went up Church treet, We pulled him over and topped him. My daddy wa talking to him and I looked underneath and aw that it had a fale bottom i n it. He aid, ''You got a trap in thi thing? How much liquor have you got?" The man aid, "Oh, hundred and five cae. " Well he bought the truck back and paid the fine, Two week later, we were earching bootlegger on Bankhead Hi ghway. It wa right on the highway. I looked up, and there went the truck going toward Paulding County. He wa going a different route. We ran and jumped in the car, but couldn ' t overtake him. We turned around and came back. He came right up in front of u headed back toward tlanta. We pulled him over and topped him. He aid, "You got me again, " He had another hundred and five cae. I have had a lot of experience with whikey. You aid that Cobb County wa part of the Blue Ridge Circuit. Do you remember how many people were living in Cobb County then, or can you give me ome information about what it wa like back then? Well, there couldn't have been too many people. I don't remember the count, but I think my daddy had four deputie oack in thoe day, It wa a big county, but we probably had 28,000 people. What wa the bigget hopping area back then?

9 6 quare quare in Marietta? quare, ye. I gue Marietta wa the bigget town? Oh, ye. Marietta wa the larget town by far. Everybody came to Marietta. I know when we lived in the country, my daddy brought two bale of cotton to town. The quare wan't paved then; it wa about ankle deep in mud. I got away from the wagon and got lot. Bill Bihop, who wa heriff himelf prior to that, took me and at me in front of the courthoue. I wa a little boy and cared to death and Daddy came by there and got me. I wan' t ued to coming to town, you know. Did you do any farming back then? Cotton farming? Daddy did. He did motly vegetable farming. He would get up at two or three o ' clock in the morning, and take hi tuff in a wagon to tlanta, How long would it take to go from here to tlanta? Oh, it would take about three or four hour to go to tlanta. He did leave about two or three o'clock in the morning, and he would get back late that afternoon. Wa thi prior to him being heriff? Ye, prior to moving to Marietta here, Did he own hi own land or did he harecrop? My grandmother owned the land, I gue there wa a lot of harecropping going on back then, wan't there? There wa a lot of it, ye; but the land we farmed wa what i Milford Elementary chool now. I wa born in a houe acro the treet in an old houe where the fire department i now. That ' the outhern part of the county. That area mut have been all farm back then? Ye, it wa all farm. Back in thoe day, Cobb County made about ten or twelve thouand bale of cotton a year, There wa a good bit of cotton raied in Cobb County back in thoe day.

10 7 What wa another good crop for farmer back then? Well, produce wa a good crop back in thoe day. Mot of the people, if they farmed,raied cotton. Wa there a cotton gin omewhere around here? Ye, right acro the railroad in Marietta where the Marietta Recreation Hall i now. Everybody brought their cotton up to Marietta? Well, you had them all over the county. There wa one there. There wa one in Kenneaw; one in myrna; one in Powder pring; one in utell. You had them cattered all over the county. Where wa the jail? cro Wahington venue. That jail han't been torn down too long. How big a jail did they have? They had one that would houe about thirty-five people, When we moved to the jail, they had the gallow there, and it wa till working. My brother and I ued to play with it. We would trip the thing jut to ee it fall. Of coure, they later did away with it and cemented the door. Back in thoe day my mother wa the cook, jailer, and everything ele. They couldn't afford to pay u alary to hire one becaue they didn' t make that much money. he had a lot of proolem. he had the prioner run over her twice. Trying to ecape? Trying to ecape. We had a cow. We milked that cow at the jail there, and we raied hog and everything. My brother wa milking one afternoon and beard my mother holler. He ran through the houe and picked up the 20 gauge hotgun (which I till have). They were trying to open the door to get out. Of coure, it wan't loaded; but he told them if they tried to come out, be wa going to hoot them. He wa probablyabout fourteen year old. o they gave the key back to my mother. I take it you had a houe right there in the jail? Ye, we lived in the jail. We lived in the front and the jail wa on the back ide. Wa the jail uptair or downtair?

11 8 Both. It wa uptair and downtair. We had three cell block. Well, did your daddy have hi office in the jail? No, it in the courthoue. But when I took office, my office wa in the jail. Nobody living in the houe part of it o my office wa there. Wa thi the ame jail? Ye. When did they finall y move your old jail over to the preent jail? Herb McCollum wa County Commiioner, and he tarted the firt project. Mr. Barrett ha been in ixteen year, o it had to be around fourteen year ago. What kind of prioner did you have? Do you remember any big crime or prioner? Oh, we had a good many homicide. But there wa nobody electrocuted that I remember while my daddy wa till in office. lot of them got life entence. Back in thoe day you would have an occaional burglary and a lot of chicken tealing. lot of chicken tealing. Were black and white both invol ved in that uually? Ye, black and white were involved You aid 75 percent of your prioner were black back t hen? Ye. Wa it becaue they couldn' t work? Well, I don't know. I had rather not ay about that. What about communication back then? Did you have radio in your car? No, you would get in the car and go out. I remember o many night me and my daddy would go out and it on the road all night and catch two load of whikey. My daddy would tell my mother what road we would be on if anybody wanted u. They would have to end omebody out to get u. o if omebody called the heri ff' office for a homicide or omething like that, they would have to end omebody out to get you?

12 9 Of coure. He had four deputie; and be would try to get in touch with one of them; but like it ba alway been, the people jut wanted to ee the heriff. That i the way it i now. Bill Huton (heriff at thi time)...everybody want to talk to him. nd nine time out of ten, mot anybody in the office could give them the advice that he give them. But they want to ee the heriff, That' the way it goe. That i an elective office. Do you remember when the firt radio came in or when you tarted getting r adio? No, we didn' t have any. But when my father got defeated, the county police got radio in their car. That' the firt they had. fter 1933, my brother and I ran a ervice tation; and I worked for the Marietta Fire Department and went into the ervice November 25, But that year' training turned. out to be about a five year training. I pent mot ofmy tour in the ervice (17 month) down at Ft. tewart and two year in Newfoundland. What branch of ervice were you in? I wa in the antiaircraft. Thi wa World War II, you are talking about? Ye, when my daddy wa elected the econd time in 1944, he ran againt Babe Hick; and it wa o tangled up, the tate of Georgia threw it out and made them r un it over. In the meantime, Mr. Babe Hick died; and Dewey Gable oppoed my daddy, and my daddy beat him. Do you remember your roughet campaign or who gave you a lot of trouble while you were running? My chief deputy the firt time I ran after about a year and a half made me a propoition I couldn't become involved in. I t old him I couldn't do it. He aid, "Well, I'm going to pull out and run againt you." I aid, "You will jut have to pull out and run againt me." Coure, be politicked and politicked at the time. That wa my firt time in office. I had four opponent, and I got 3400 vote more than all the ret of them put together. Then I didn' t have any oppoition for a while. The lat oppoition I had wa Joe Bullard, a Republican. I didn't do anything, and he didn't do anything. I beat him about 10,000 vote. o you didn ' t actually campai gn that lat time? No. Being in law enforcement while I erved, I alo worked for the tate Revenue Department for a while. I worked in Paulding County where there were a lot of till, We would raid a high a ixty till a month. They were the groundhog type. They weren't big till. I enjoyed that, and I

13 10 got a lot of exercie walking branche and tuff. Do you remember where your lat till wa that you got? The lat till that wa caught wa about four year ago. It wa on Robert Road. It wa a huge till. Two 3000 gallon till. They were operating out of the baement of the houe and had a lake in the back. They were pumping water from the lake to the houe to cool it and condene it. It wa putting out a gallon a minute. It wa a huge till. We caught one and one got away. o they had it et up in the baement of the houe there? Ye. I gue that wa one of the lat big operation? No, I think there i till a little whikey being made. Thee people who put up big til l ue diinfectant tuff; o if you don't get ome information onthem,they are hard to catch becaue they keep them clean. They do now? Ye. Where would be an ideal place to et one up? Would it be in a baement like that guy did? That from ever it. made i a good place. We caught a lot of them in baement mall one to large one. Bigget load of whikey I caught wa a truck with nine hundred and ix gallon on I have got picture of all thee t i l l and thing. I picture of all of them. Do you have a crapbook around here with you? No, it' at home. I don't have a crapbook; jut a bunch of picture. I know my daddy took me down on Rick Road to a great till down there. Our information wa that it wa in the houe. We could mell it in the houe. It had been under ther e. The man ' wife kept trying to get out while we were there. Finally he went out in the back yar d and hollered, "It' a raid." They had an underground till. They had thirty-two vat and an upright boiler. He ran, and I ran after him. I r an him about a mile, I gue. He fell right in a field and aid, "I'll be damn fellow, don ' t you ever give up?" Hardly anyone could outrun me back then. Did any of your brother get into law enforcement? My brother wa Chief of Police here for twenty- eight year,

14 11 Over at the city? The city, ye. I gue you worked pretty cloe together ince you were the heriff? Ye, between my father, myelf, and my brother, we had over a hundred year in law enforcement. Do you have any other brother beide the one who wa Chief? No other brother, but two iter. I ' ve got one nephew who i a city policeman and ha been for ixteen year. Marietta Police? Marietta Police Department Law enforcement i in your family, in't it? Ye, but it i about played out. I enjoyed law enforcement. I ued to enjoy it more than I do now. They have o many federal deciion revering you thi and that, it got to where it wan ' t a pleaure to enforce the law. I peronally think they went too far on ome of the deciion, but that wan ' t for me to ay. That' one of the main reaon I gave it up. Under their deciion, I had a lot of law uit againt me. None of them materialized, but it wa a terrible worry for the heriff. The heriff ba a few of them now. You can't help but worry, and back then we didn't have any coverage to tart off with. Later on I did through the national heriff' aociation. heriff Huton ha himelf and all t he deputie covered under it. The fale arret inurance. I gue when you firt tarted, people didn' t think aoout uing you. They jut paid the fine. Ye. That wa it. They jut wanted to get out the bet way they could. lot of them I don't gue even howed back up for court or trial, did they? Epecially the whikey hauler? No, the whikey hauler alway came in. They were uual ly fined a reaonable fine, epeci ally during the Depreion. lot of them were put on upended entence and told not to come back before the judge at all. The judge wa D.W. Blair (whoe on wa the mayor) back when my daddy wa heriff.

15 12 He ued to go to Blue Ridge, Ellijay, Japer, etc., and we would alway take him up to the hotel early Monday morning. He would call up and tell u when to come pick him up. Uually it took three or four day for court. He went from town to town. They didn't have a court ytem like they have now? No. One judge covered the whole circuit ditrict. Did you ay the judge came here? Ye. Judge Blair lived here. Judge John Wood ucceeded him, and he lived in Cherokee County. He wa a great man. Do you remember when they changed the court ytem, and we got out of the Blue Ridge Circui t? I don't remember the year, no. Do you know who the firt judge wa here when we got out of the Blue Ridge Circuit? Harold Hawkin. Did they have court more often after that? Oh, ye. I gue the countyy tarted growing? The county tarted growing. Cherokee County and other countie. Coure, they till have the Blue Ridge Circuit. It include all the countie except Cobb County 1 Cherokee, Gilmer, Fannin, and Foryth. You aid you went to Marietta High chool? One year, ye. Where did you go to grammar chool? Waterman treet Elementary chool. t the time I lived on Clay treet. We would cut acro the pature. It eem trange you talking about it being pature, and now it' all grown up with buine. Ye, I ued to kill bird, quirrel, and rabbit while we lived down there. What about ome of your experience going to tlanta. Did you ever go to tlanta much when you were a boy?

16 13 No, not too often. I wa too buy trying to catch whikey. Under the fee ytem, you bad to work bard. It wa hard to make a living. Coure, when I got elected in 1956, I had eleven detective and office help. Daughter of the former heriff came to work for me. Her daddy beat my daddy. he tayed with me for 20 year. With the detective and office help, I had omewhere around thirty or thirty-five people. That i until I turned the detective over to the county police. Do you remember when you turned the detective over to the county police? I don't r emember the year, but we didn't have enough help to do the job a heriff and detective too. o I aked Ernet Barrett to take them over becaue I jut could not work night and day. Jeie Cooper, Edward Brumbelow, and myelf averaged eighty-four hour a week for eleven year. They took them over, and two year later they had ixty-four detective. I don ' t gue you got paid overtime, did you? No. No overtime. were putting in eighty- four hour a week and you were paid the ame. I tarted a heriff making $8400 a year, I believe it wa; and when I quit, I wa making $17,500 a year. It wa hard picking, trying to get it up to there. Of coure, at thi time, heriff Huton ha got it up to about $22, 000. I gue it' worth it for all you have to put up with. Coure, be ha a lot of people under him. I had approximately 115 people when I left office, I gue he ha got about 135 now. Coure, the county i growing. It went from a one town to three hundred thouand people. I have worked for heriff Huton a an aide. I think he ha made an excellent heriff for Cobb County. I would imagine you have een a lot of change. Well, I gue I went through the bigget tranition of anybody. I know while my daddy wa city police and we were living on Clay treet, we had a bard time maki ng end meet. My mother and grandmother ued to make me ome hort britche. I wore hort britche until I wa ixteen year old. My firt long pair wa one of thoe hand- me-down uit from my uncle, Coure, we bad plenty to eat, but not very much variety. We ate a lot of dried bean and a lot of corn bread. Good old butter bean and weet milk. You ay you went through the bigget tranition. I gue that' true.

17 14 Ye, it wa a one hore town. When I left it I had 115 people; o that i the bigget tranition. You went f rom no radio in your car to... Radio and now the ytem heriff Huton ha i even more modernized. nd there will be change again if they have to. You have to keep up with the time. Back when you were heriff, you aid they formed a county police in Cobb County. They gave them radio. Did they eventually give you ome radio to go in your car? They had radio in the car when my daddy got elected. It wa after hi firt time; when he got re- elected, my daddy had one radio in one car. Wa he on the ame frequency with the police department? Ye. What kind of dutie did the heri ff have after the county police came in? Did they take over mot of the road? They took over the traffic end. Back when my daddy wa heriff, the peed law were thirty-five mile an hour. I have made a good many cae of people going forty and forty- five mile an hour. We had a lot of meanne come out of tlanta back in thoe day. We would work the lower end of the county frequently at night. There were a lot of protitute who came out of there. Fulton County and tlanta got after them pretty hard, and we caught a lot of protitute back in thoe day, which wa al o a way of making money on the fee ytem. He aid it wan't right. I never did do it, but ome people would make cae where they could have let people go under the fee ytem. Your daddy never liked the fee ytem? Never liked the fee ytem. He wa till under it when he died; but it changed after that, I believe, under the term of heriff croggin to a regular alary. You aid he died in office? Ye, he had a heart attack on pril 13, I came home and ruhed him to the hopital, and be died there. How many year did he have before hi term would end? Well, he had only erved a year and three month. Mr. croggin wa Chief Deputy, and under the law he took over the lape of that term. Then he wa relected two term. Then I defeated my daddy' chief deputy.

18 15 You were talking about protitution. Wa there a motel or omething omewhere around here in Marietta? No, they parked their car, went in the wood, and o forth. Would thee guy go down there and pick them up? Ye, and we got a lot of complaint from the citizen down there about car parking, We worked there quite frequently, epecially when the wa warm. They weren't too bad when it wa cold. Back in thoe day we didn't have many heater in car. I know many a night me and my daddy have gone out in an open car with curtain up in it with a lantern between our leg to keep warm to catch whikey. Next morning we would be black with moke. You didn' t have any heater, o you ued a lantern? Ye, we took a lap robe and put the lantern down between our leg, we put the lap robe over u and kept warm too. Were you the heriff when the Bell Bomber plant came to Marietta? No, I wa gone in the ervice. I would imagine that brought a lot of people to Cobb County. Ye, it brought a lot of people here. I aked you about a motel or hotel. Wa there nowhere for people to tay around Marietta when they came to town? Well, later on there wa one down in myrna that wa quite famou. My daddy took office in He raided down there and caught omewhere around twenty-five or thirty couple in there. There wa a big write-up about it in thoe day. How myrna? Did they have a pretty big force back then? No, they had a very mall force. Did cworth and Kenneaw alo have police department? cworth did. I don't remember if Kenneaw did or not, cworth ha a pretty mall police force. One or two people i about all. Trouble back in thoe day wa paying the people alarie. City police here when my daddy got on made a dollar a day. Doen't eem l;!..ke much, doe it? No, but he wa glad to get it. long with working there and part-time job, we lived. We didn't live fancy, but we had plenty to eat. We alway raied hog and cow.

19 16 Did you have a lot of people to come in to give you hog or chicken or anything like that? No, I don't remember anybody giving u anyt hing. Who wa reponible for feeding the prioner? My daddy wa reponible. Wa he? How would he get the food to feed them? He bought it and charged it to tbe county. Coure, back in thoe day, they were fed fatback, gravy, and dried bean. They lived on it, and I have lived on it myelf. o they were no better than I wa. Ye, you were eating the ame thing they were. We were eating off the ame table. There were different kitchen, but the ame food. Back in thoe day you didn ' t have any complaint about the food much. Now they have three or four vegetable, meat, and tuff, and a balanced diet. The government require you to feed them a balanced diet. o, you are under the law to feed them a balanced diet whether you have the money or not? Ye, and they do feed good meal in thi jail over here. It' not like home, but I have picked up a l ot of hardened criminal that ay it i the bet jail food they have ever eaten. Ye, I have heard that before myelf. lo, that it i a good jail here. Talking about jail, what i the bigget jailbreak you remember? Three. t the old jail, if they got a back aw, they could aw out in a few hour time. I came in one morning. I had a date. I went into the kitchen, and I heard omething awing. I went in and woke my daddy up and aid, "They are awing out uptair." He and I went up there after be got hi gun. They had already awed out of the jail block and were awing out of the window. It wa a problem keeping people in jail back in thoe day becaue the window were down o that anybody could put anything in jail they wanted to. People would neak thing in there to hel p get them out? Ye, we didn't have but about 25, ometime 30 people, but that wa a rare occaion. I would ay the normal population would be 12 or 15. Twelve or 15 prioner? Ye.

20 17 nd you had four deputie to watch them and patrol the county? The deputie didn' t have anything to do with it. They worked out on the road motly. My mother wa the jailor. Later on after my daddy tarted making better money, he hired a cook to cook intead of Mother. Did they have county commiioner back then when be wa heriff? Ye. Would they allot him o much money in a budget? They gave him money in the budget, and that' all. He had to make do with what he had. Ye, had to make do with what they allotted him. Between the time he left office and wa re-elected, be worked for the County Police for everal year under J. Horace Hamby, County Conuniioner. Thi wa after he wa heriff? Thi wa after he wa heriff the firt time. My daddy liked tock, and he got into the mule buine. He traded mule and made a good living out of trading mule. He loved the mule buine. They had a place here in town and one in cworth. lot of mule were traded and old back in thoe day. People ued them for farm animal, right? Ye. You were talking about trading mule. Would omebody' mule die or get old or Well, mule would get old or they would not be atified with them. They were like they are about car now. They would ue them a while and want omething different. Mot of the farmer wanted good mule that would work. nd my daddy would have a lot of mule hipped in here from Tenneee... good mule. o if a farmer became diatified with hi mule, he would trade them out and get another et like he would a car? Ye, and there wa alway omebody willing to buy them becaue they would oe at a reduced price when they traded in, jut like car. If a man didn't have a good et of mule back then, he wa in trouble, I gue.

21 18 In trouble, ye, Coure, ome of the big farmer bad eight or ten head of mule. Now thi day and time tractor can do a much a thirty head of mule. Did you ever do any tractor farming or machine farming? No, jut mule. I imagine when people tarted trucking, farming became big buine around here, didn' t it? Oh, ye. ome of the bigger farmer went into trictly produce farming like the Bullard boy out on Dalla Highway. They were trictly produce farmer. They ued to raie cotton on the farm. They till raied ome corn, but motly they raied quah and pea. They had different crop all during the ummer. They alway took their into tlanta. Big market in tlanta? Big market there, ye. Who wa the bigget farmer you remember around here? I don't know. I gue the nderon farm wa the bigget around here. Wa that located in the outh part of the county? That' located where they have all thoe fuel tank down there near Powder pring Road. What wa their mai n crop? Well, corn, cotton, and they rai ed a lot of hay at that time. There wa another big farm on Canton Road. That nderon, I believe wa the preident of BibbManufacturing Company. He owned that one up there, and he had tenant farmer and overeer. harecropper wer e up there. What were ome of the main road you had back then when your father wa heriff and you were working for him? Well, of coure, when I wa working for him, Canton Road wan' t even paved. Rowel l Road wan' t paved. What about 41 Highway? Mot of it wa paved. Wa it a paved road? Coure it wa a turtle back road. \ la that the main highway through here?

22 19 That wa the main h i ghway coming from the north. There wan ' t a whole lot of tourit back in tho e day. I know my daddy bought my mother a T- model Ford, and he never would dr ive it. We went to Jackonvi lle, Florida, to ee her uncle and aunt down there one time. It took u 3 day and 2 night to get down there. It tarted uing oil before we got down there. Mother kept up wit h all the expene, and on the way back we were buying oil by the three gallon. We ued ixteen gallon of oil in that T-model. Now you can get there in five or ix hour. I would imagine you did a lot of traveling while you were heri ff, epecially later on up in the 60 ' and 70 ' didn't you? Ye. While I wa heriff, I had the privil ege to be in every tate in the union picking up people or going through there to pick up people. Plu I went to London, England, to pick up one. J udge Luther Hame wa oli citor general back then. They bad twelve count on thi boy for forgery. They put in an extradition on him and extradited him. He and I went over there and pent four day there. bout four FBI men howed u around town for four day. We bad to lay over to get all the final paper fixed. Thi wa in London, Engl and? Ye, they took u on tour. We had the privilege of going through cotland Yard and that ' omething anybody rarely get to go through. That' true. I would imagine that cotland Yard i a fine ootfit. The barriter who r epreented u wa real nice. He invited u to hi club where be had hi own table and one man waited on him only. He brought ome wine out and poured it in the glae ; and our hot kept aying, "Chill it jut a little more, Chill it jut a little more. " It had to be jut r ight with him. We had a wonderful meal. It wa very unuual for one man to be waiting on you hand and foot and that' all he did. That one man waited on that one table. Well, how did you get the prioner back? Did you fly? We flew him back. Do you know what year thi wa? It wa in the earl y ixtie, I gue. It wa 1964 or I bet that wa an experience for you, wan ' t i t?

23 20 Ye, it wa an experience. I had never been there before, and I don ' t gue I will get a change to get back. It wa a trip well worth it. We tayed in a hotel that had wonderful food. People were real nice to u over there. Did you motly tranport by car in the United tate? By car. I gue I made ome twenty or twenty-five trip to California to pick up prioner. I gue only three or four time I went out there that I flew them back. Have you been to laka to pick one up? No, that wan't one of them. ll the original 48 tate, What did you do with the prioner when you had to top? We would board them up in the heriff department or police department. They would keep overnight. o when you came into a town you jut took the prioner to the local heriff and he would board him for you? Ye. Did you have to pay for that ervice? No, mot of them wouldn't charge, We told them not to feed them. We would feed them breakfat. I don't recall but one time-- that wa in Kentucky- -they charged u, I gue you did the ame for people who were traveling through here? Ye. Coure, later on all the heriff in Georgia got together and decided there would be no charge. If we went to Tifton, Georgia, to pick up omebody, there would be no charge. Likewie, i f they came up here, it wa an undertanding that there would be no charge. That cut down on the expene a lot, didn't it? Ye, it cut down on the expene. Thank you. _.