Robert J. Matheson. Born TRANSCRIPT of OH 1917V

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1 Robert J. Matheson. Born TRANSCRIPT of OH 1917V This interview was recorded on January 24, 2014, for the Maria Rogers Oral History Program. The interviewer is Megan Bowes. The interview also is available in video format, filmed by Anne Marie Pois. The interview was transcribed by Susan Becker. ABSTRACT: Bob Matheson describes his house and the land on which he lives in the Marshall area, beginning with a discussion of the many coal mines in the area, the coal mine fires that continue to burn underground, a silver and gold mill that once operated in the area, and the longwall coal mining technique that was attempted at the Fox Patterson Mine. He describes the design and building his house, outbuildings and well, including the original house concept, which was designed by architect Charles Haertling. He also talks about wildlife in the area the old Marshall School, and his conservation easement with the open space department. NOTE: The interviewer s questions and comments appear in parentheses. Added material appears in brackets. [A]. 00:00 (Today is January 24, My name is Megan Bowes, and I'm interviewing Bob Matheson. The interview is being recorded for the Maria Rogers Oral History Program, and its being filmed by Anne Marie Pois. Thank you, Bob, for agreeing to this interview. Can we start with my asking you when and where you were born?) I was born in Midland, Michigan, June 23, (And when did you come to Boulder or Marshall?) We came to Boulder Dad had a job with Dow, and so in 1951 we came to Boulder. He was working on the Rocky Flats plant. So we came to Boulder with a whole bunch of other people in the early '50s. Later on, I went to the University of Colorado here and started on my degree in In 1962, I had graduated, and then I started working at the Bureau of Standards as an engineer. Actually I had worked there during the summers while I was going to college. So I got to know the south end of Boulder. We had also bought some land in Eldorado Springs, so I knew that part of Boulder. After I graduated, then I got married. My first wife had horses. So we needed a place to keep horses, so we were keeping the horses on I forget what that property was called the property or something? Just south of where the house is now. For many years we kept horses there. We built a small barn, and when the city Open Space Program bought that land, they had OH 1917V, Robert Matheson, page 1 of 18

2 good taste enough that they tore the barn down before it fell down. We moved our horses up here then. So in probably about 1965, we bought the property that our house is built on now. We bought about forty acres of land. Now we have forty acres of nice land on a hill overlooking Boulder in the mountains. So we built a house up here, starting in (So you were looking for some land that you could house the horses on.) Yes. (What were some of the other reasons that you chose this property?) Oh well, because it had a beautiful view. And you know it was also very close to where we were staying. We were living in San Souci trailer court, just about a mile or so west of here. And it was near where we were keeping the horses, so everything was kind of part of the family almost when we bought this property. Although we had kept horses down in the valley for many years, and we were looking for a nice place with a view, we had actually never climbed the hill up here to see what was up here, and we were just amazed at the view once we got up to the top. Yeah. The person we bought the land from, Fred Botenham [?] had been running for many years he had been running a landfill dump here, a small landfill dump. But he decided the property was probably worth more as property rather than as a dump site, so when we built our we bought the first tena-cre lot up here and then later on we bought the rest of it. We ended his landfill dump operation and buried all the stuff (So that was immediately on site. It wasn't the Marshall Dump to the south of here?) No, the Marshall Dump was a much bigger operation and a much later operation. I don't know when his dump started. It might have even been in the forties or something like that. Certainly by the '50s. (So how would you describe the property today?) It's quite mountainous. We built a house on the top of the mountain. It's largely surrounded on the north and the west and on the east by open space property. Nowadays, we don't have any horses on it anymore, so it's just a piece of wooded land. Wooded and grassland on a hillside. Kind of a mountainside. From the earlier days, there are lots of remains of old coal mines around here. I notice that if I compare the land the way it looks now to the way it looked forty years ago when we first bought the land fifty years ago, almost I would say there are many more trees on it. There are the land had almost no trees on it when we got it. And the trees are all growing up to the point where we are starting to cut a lot of trees down, because it's starting to turn into a forest, and its ruining our views, and if we wanted to graze horses again, it would ruin our grazing because of all the forest instead of the grass. OH 1917V, Robert Matheson, page 2 of 18

3 05:45 And I notice that the City of Boulder has been cutting down trees on their open space land here also, because they say the trees don't really belong here, that originally the trees were controlled by prairie fires that burned the trees down. But now that there are no prairie fires, it is all becoming forest land. I don't want this to become forest land on at least parts of it. (So, you live just outside the town of Marshall.) Yes. (And that area is well-known for the historic coal mining that happened over nearly a century of time. Do you own mineral rights on your property here?) That's a very interesting question. Because this is the land that was once all owned by Union Pacific and particularly the coal rights and other mineral rights. And as a matter of fact, I just happened to have some of the old title documents here, and I was reading through them because I had I was looking for something that I had seen earlier on a Supreme Court decision on this land. Strange property rights here. And I got some more out of this. But the Union Pacific did not, apparently, give up their coal rights. But a lot of mining operations came in and started coal mines here, without Union Pacific permission. Or at least without any formal legal permission. I don't know whether they paid people off or not. But after a number of years, after this land was heavily in coal mines and a number of the coal mines had been here for thirty or forty years, they said since we've been mining this coal for thirty or forty years, we ought to have some legal right to continue mining this coal. And they sued Union Pacific to force Union Pacific to give up their coal rights, since the local miners had been mining for long enough that they got some kind of squatters' rights or something on it. This actually went all the way up to the Supreme Court, and somewhere around 1920, the Supreme Court said no, that they would not give the local companies exclusive rights, taking them away from Union Pacific. But that's all they said. So it still left it very much in a quandary as to who owned the rights. And I noticed in a number of documents here that when they were giving coal rights to the companies the landowners were giving coal rights to the mining companies there was a clause in there that said that this contract would not be made public, because that was apparently the standard contract, that none of these things were to be made public because then Union Pacific would have proof that they were mining coal there illegally or something I don't know what the details were. But this is obviously a public document and there was on some of these pages that the clause #8 that said this document should never be made public was rescinded in the case of this contract, so it should be put in to the public record. But that says something else really weird about the coal mining operations here. OH 1917V, Robert Matheson, page 3 of 18

4 So we have probably on this forty acres, I imagine, there are probably a half-dozen mines, some of them big and some of them little. Many of those coal mines are on fire. Twenty, twenty-five years ago, the state of Colorado made a major push to seal all the mine entrances off and try to smother the flames underground. Because you could see cracks in the ground that steam was coming out of (So could you talk about the phenomenon that's causing the fire?) 09:58 Well, what's causing the fire, what made the fires really bad here, is because we're on a hill. And this hill you know, the coal seams were level, but then the geology moved the coal seams out of level, and that made our hillside and our house is right up here on the top of the hill. But it meant that the coal mines now were not mining a level layer of coal, but a very slanted layer, a very sloped layer of coal. They would follow the coal seams up, of course, and it made it very good, because now gravity would help them take the coal out and all of the mine entrances were at the bottom. But they had ventilation holes at the top of the mines. If a fire got started in there, it was just like a chimney, and the fire would spread very rapidly. And apparently there were some situations even where they say spontaneous combustion with a wet coal in the mines actually started fires. In any case, a number of the fires in the Marshall area got started one way or another, and so underneath this hillside a number of the mines are burning. These mines have been going, some of them, since 1900 or so, and they just keep burning and burning and burning. There are lots of places on our land where you can see where the coal mines have collapsed either from regular coal mining activities or possibly from being burned out. When we built the house up here, we had to be very careful about looking at all the mine maps and see where the coal mines were to try to guess where the burning had occurred. Of course they didn't make maps of the burning because once they started burning, they mines. So we drove a number of cores to make sure what was really underneath our house. In some cases we did that job great, and sometimes we didn't, because one of the things about having a house somewhere is to have a good well. And I was looking for a good place to put a well. Well, we got a well here. It turns out there's just one little part of our land one little quarter of the land that's on the right side of a fault line that we got the well in. But I still needed a place for the leaching field for our septic tank. And it turns out that this whole surface is either very heavy gravel out of big boulders and sandstone, or its hard clay. And none of those were good for leaching fields. So I was looking all over the land for a leaching field. I finally found a layer of land that was just like a sand beach. It was beautiful. Just what I wanted for a and it was only a couple of hundred feet from the house it was downhill from the house, so all of that would work fine. And it wasn't until we had been in the house for about five years that I discovered that all of my interior copper sewer lines were corroding away from the inside. And it turns out that's because the reason that we had a patch of sandy layer there was that some kind of a vent from the burning coal mines had turned the sandstone into loose sand, which is all chemically the way OH 1917V, Robert Matheson, page 4 of 18

5 all of the stuff holding the particles of sand together, and that's what I built my leaching field over. So the coal mine gases went through the leaching field, through my septic system, up through the exhaust out the roof of the house, and it corroded away all of the copper pipes it saw in the meantime. So we had to change some stuff and go to plastic pipes and do a bunch of other things. So we are still, in a certain sense, living with those coal mines. Every so often, every year or two or three, there's another collapse hole and a bunch of gases coming up from the coal mines. We call the state of Colorado and they come out and fill in all the coal mines, so they try to keep the fires smothered. (What do they fill them with? Do you know?) Oh, just dirt. (Dirt?) Yeah, just dirt. It's a deal where, when the coal burns out, that leaves a void and then (Then things collapse.) then things collapse. And if it's close enough to the surface, it collapses all the way to the surface, and it leaves another air channel, another chimney that the fires start burning again. So they really want to keep those things put out. (So when you first moved here in the late sixties, was there other evidence of mining here? Were there any structures that remained, or anything else besides these collapsed areas?) 15:05 Yeah. I forget whether it was called the Red Ash or the Pittsburgh Mine at the time. That was down at the bottom of the road near our driveway. There were a number of structures there at the time. Now, the owner of the land pulled all that stuff down to make the land more suitable for houses and that kind of stuff. But there were coal structures there. And for instance, about a half a mile east of of here, at the old Crown Mine, I had a friend who owned that property, and that had a big structure, a big mill structure, a big probably a seventyfive foot by hundred-foot steel building there, and he was in the process of taking that down when I first saw that structure in the early sixties. He invited me up to actually I spent most of the summer up there in one of the old mine shops or garages there, because I was changing the engine in my jeep. He invited me up there to work on that. So I got a good chance to see that, and I watched him tear the building down. And the reason that building was there, incidentally, unlike any of the other mine buildings there, was that mine was actually extracting gold and silver from the coal mine as well. And so these were big ore processing machinery inside that building. So that was one of the few coal mines OH 1917V, Robert Matheson, page 5 of 18

6 that they actually took precious metals out of also. And that was shut down, oh, I don't know when that was shut down, but that was shut down, I think, in the '20s in the '30s or so, when they discovered that at least some of the gold was being smuggled in from Mexico and sold at a real profit. So they shut that operation down, but that was kind of another part of the interesting coal mining operations around here. (How long do you think that that mine was in operation, or the mill that was ) I have no idea, but I would imagine that it was that the coal mine was surely in operation for a long time, because it was a big coal mine. I would guess it was probably 20 or 30 years that it might have been in operation. But I really didn't hear any exact dates on that, I don't know what those dates are. (And your friend who owned that? What was his name?) Lyle Edwin. And as a matter of fact, there were a number of nice houses up there there are three or four nice houses up there now, scattered around where the old coal mine was. And the reason they happened to be there is because that old coal mine had a really good water well, and so those houses are all sharing that water well now. A lot of the houses on this side of the hill don't have good wells. (So were you able to salvage your septic then?) Oh, yeah. (Okay.) Yeah, we just had to do some stuff to it and put some water traps in there so the gas was removed [?] all the way through the system. (So, I want to talk a little bit about the house, the design of the house and the architecture. Charles Haertling was the name of the architect, and he's fairly well-known in Boulder. Can you speak a little bit about how you came to meet him and choose him to be your architect?) Yeah. The major reason we knew him was, he went to our church, Grace Lutheran Church on the Hill in Boulder. I actually knew his wife first because she was our choir director I was a little kid then, for the junior choir. Later on, she married Chuck, and he got to be, eventually, a famous architect. But in his early days, he was really struggling for each job, because his houses were really weird and the banks wouldn't loan money on the houses, because who would ever buy a house like that if the first owner defaulted or something like that! So he was really having trouble getting good jobs. We just knew that he was going to be really delighted when we asked him to do a house for us. Because we really wanted a unique house. And we didn't have a lot of money, but we knew that he had built a lot of cheap houses in the past and we thought he would do something really great for us. OH 1917V, Robert Matheson, page 6 of 18

7 So one day we said, "Well, Chuck, we want you to build us a house." And we told him a little bit of what we had in mind, and he said, "You know, Bob, I'm not doing cheap houses anymore." So "What do you mean?!?" What we hadn't realized was that about six months before this, two of his houses in Boulder had appeared on the cover of Life magazine. I mean, Life magazine was really the big national magazine then. Suddenly, from being this struggling young architect, he was now world famous, kind of Frank Lloyd Wright class. Everyone including people with a lot more money than we had were asking him to do houses. And so when we asked him to do a little cheap house again, he wasn't 20:48 So we said, "Well, okay, so Chuck," you know, we were friends for a long time. We said, "Look, can you come up the hill with us and look at the site and maybe give us some clues as to, I don't know, something maybe recommend another architect or I don't know what. But he did; he was willing to do that. And he came up to the top of the hill, and he looked around, and he saw the view and he said, "Wow! Wow! This is a really neat " And he said, "Okay, I'll do it." So we got him to do it. But even so, we still didn't have any money, so we built a really very, very kind of primitive house. It wasn't decorated the way the house is now at all. So we got a house that was mainly concrete walls and plywood floors. In the basement we didn't even have concrete floors. We just had dirt floors in the basement, because we next year we had enough money to put in the concrete and stuff. So I ended up doing a lot of the work on it myself. Then, when I got married again, my second wife said, "Who did all this crummy stuff? We've got to fix this house up so it is really nice." So, a lot of what you see isn't my stuff anymore, but the house is nice. (So how would you describe Haertling's style?) Oh! Well, Haertling's style is very geometrical. It's really great. In the case of this house, what we told Chuck we needed was we had been living in a trailer, the Sans Souci trailer park about a mile west of here. We had lived there for six or seven years or something. In the course of that, high winds had destroyed trailers on either side of us, and our trailer rocked back and forth in the wind. So we said, "Chuck, when you build this house, make sure it doesn't sway in the wind. We don't want to be able to feel the wind at all, so put a lot of concrete in the house. And keep it low on the hillside." So he built this house kind of into the hillside. So it's got a lot of glass and a lot of concrete in it. It's a very geometrical-shaped house. A lot of cylinders. And because of those cylinders, I learned a lot about making walls out of making round walls out of concrete and stuff that I did a bunch of that myself. You can see the other round walls that we've done our garage is OH 1917V, Robert Matheson, page 7 of 18

8 round and we have a shed out in the front that's a round shed, about twenty feet in diameter. So I learned all about making round stuff. (So you retained a number of the elements, but you also modified things over time?) Oh, yeah. We added it to it. We built only the very basic house shape, and since then we've added, as I say, a garage and another shed and we've added gardens and all that kind of stuff. (And you personally did most of the work? You hired some contractors but ) [crosstalk] Well, we had contractors in to build the basic house, and after that, then, I did a lot of the finishes and stuff. (So one thing I read was that there was an abandoned gravel pit here ) Oh, oh yeah! (And he used that in the design?) Yes, we did indeed. When we first came up here, the first thing we did was build a barn for the horses. And of course, about five years later we ended up building the house. But part of the design of the house was we wanted a walkout basement toward the south, and we had that already. There was a gravel pit up here that the County of Boulder had they had a gravel pit and rock crusher up here. And they had already essentially mined out all of what would be our front yard. So we didn't have nearly as much digging to do there as you might think we had to do because that was already dug out. 25:20 (Was it the sandstone that they were mining?) No, they were mining the gravel on top the big gravel, where a lot of the pieces of gravel were, I mean, they were six inches in diameter or a foot in diameter. Big gravel. They would feed the big pieces in through a rock crusher they had up here. So it looked kind of like a mining operation up here, in that there were pieces of old railroad track and there were all kinds of pieces of metal garbage strewn all over the yard and the ground and stuff. We had a lot of picking up to do. (I wanted to go back a little bit to the concrete pillars that you mentioned. Tell me a little bit about why those were necessary. You mentioned that you didn't want the house to sway. Were there other reasons?) OH 1917V, Robert Matheson, page 8 of 18

9 Oh, yeah, yeah. Partly because this house is built on bentonite. And so we had to go through the bentonite with the concrete pillars. Now, the house actually actually is built with a concrete pillar every five feet along the outside walls, and with glass between the concrete pillars. But every other pillar so every ten feet there's a pillar that goes down to bedrock, which was, in this case typically between twenty and thirty feet down. So those pillars go down to bedrock, and the house is kind of set down in the partly buried in the hillside. And I think that was also another reason why Haertling was actually inclined to design our house for us, because he was on the city council before that. He was on the city council for at least one term or two terms. He was very active in the open space stuff. And he was afraid that here on his open space, in clear view of Boulder, would be a big eyesore house sticking out from the top of the hill. And he didn't want that. That was kind of. So he had an opportunity to just sink our house into the ground and make sure it wasn't an eyesore. (Sure. Because that was the era of Boulder's Blue Line, and the first open space tax initiative and all of that.) Yes indeed. Yeah. (The pillars, I've read, what an interesting architectural design, having the pillars contrast with the glass. Yes.) So, you know, concrete is not a good insulator and glass is not a good insulator. So this house at one time was really cold. Because, of course, we didn't have any money for stuff like dual glass layers or anything like that. Concrete is hard to insulate. Since then, we've replaced all the glass with dual-pane glass, and all of the concrete towers and things like that have been insulated also now. (So you wore a lot of sweaters for a while.) Oh, yeah. [laughs] (Can you tell me about others buildings that may be around the property? You talked about the horse barn.) Yeah. Let me see. We have a we built a round it was a storage shed first, then a work room. It's my workshop right now. And it's actually, again, a round building. I think it's about, maybe almost twenty feet across, twenty feet diameter. And it's an interesting building. It's made out of, actually,of Styrofoam blocks that are, then, stuccoed on the outside to look like the concrete walls of the house. And that was a fun thing to build, because these were built out of big long slabs sixteen-foot long slabs that we had to curve around into a circle. For that we cut a whole bunch of wedges out (Oh, interesting.) OH 1917V, Robert Matheson, page 9 of 18

10 And we did that with hot wire and stuff, and it turned out to be a much easier way to build these round towers. Had we been aware of that material earlier when we built the house, we probably could have cut quite a bit of cost out of the house by using those curved Styrofoam blocks that way. But as it turned out, we didn't, we weren't aware of them at the time. And maybe the house would have blown away, had we done that. But it turned out to be a good construction technique, so we used it. 30:13 And then we built a garage, another round garage that a round, three-car garage with kind of a little workshop on the backside of it that overlooks the valley. So we hold dances there in the summer. It's a nice place for our dances. Any other buildings you want to know about? (Well, I also read about a riding ring. Does that still exist?) Oh! The riding ring still exists, kind of. Back when we had horses, it was a good riding ring. But that was forty years or forty-five years since we put that thing up. And a lot of the timbers have fallen down now. And that's a nice big flat area. And when you have a large, flat area, you can really see what the coal mines are doing underneath. And so there are lots of places in that that we have actually had to bring dirt in several times to fill up depressions in the ground that are caused by the collapsing coal mines. So we've done that, oh, at least two or three times. And it needs it again right now. And I think, maybe in another year or so, I'll actually rebuild that whole thing, and we'll have to level everything off again. We could put another couple of feet of dirt some places. (So when you fill with the dirt, is this something you do yourself, or is this something that the state comes in to do it? These are small enough that ) This is something I have to do myself. (Okay.) They don't want any holes in the depressions that gases are coming out through, but in terms of leveling the dirt, that's something that (That's your ) Yeah. (Okay, now I wanted to ask you a little bit about the cell towers, just to the north of here. What can you tell me about those guys?) The cell towers, just to the east of here. OH 1917V, Robert Matheson, page 10 of 18

11 (Are there not some to the north as well?) No. (Maybe it's a radio tower?) Not anything really close by. We've got a tower just to the east, oh, a 100 feet from the house. That's a small cell phone tower. Then about a block further down, there's a much larger tower, which is also mainly cell phone stuff. (And those are on your property?) The one a block further down is on property that used to be owned by Shaffer. By Russ Shaffer, who head of KBOL radio many, many years ago. Now the KBOL transmitters are in Boulder an old AM station that was here certainly in the fifties, and I imagine it started in the forties, the late forties. But he had an FM station that he started, probably in the, maybe in the sixities, maybe in the mid-sixties. He had an FM station. And that FM station was about a block west of us. He bought this site to put his FM transmitter there. And he ran that for about ten years I suspect, maybe fifteen years. I gather that it was never really a very commercially successful station. So when cell phones started coming around and everybody knew there would have to be a lot of new antenna sites for cell phones, he converted that to a cell phone tower. There are probably a half dozen different cell phone users on that station, on that tower now. (Is he still living there?) No, no. He never lived there. And he is dead now. His sons took over the operation for a number of years, and I think they maybe recently sold that to another big antenna tower company. I haven't heard, but I heard that's what they were going to do. (As you mentioned, your property is surrounded by City of Boulder open space on three sides, is that correct?) Yeah. (And then the road is to the south here. What kind of relationship do you have with the department? How did you get to interact with them?) 34:59 Well actually we've had, I think, pretty good relations in that we haven't done anything to them, and they haven't done anything to us, and I just LOVE looking over their open land and that stuff. When we first bought the land up here, the city of Boulder was moving south towards us, probably, oh, I would guess, a quarter of a mile a year. And so it's maybe a mile-and-a-half to the OH 1917V, Robert Matheson, page 11 of 18

12 edge of the city or something like that. Maybe two miles. We figured it would be about eight years or ten years and the City of Boulder would be at the base of our hill, with all those houses and stuff. But a couple of years after, several years after we bought the land actually several years after we had the house up here, the City of Boulder instituted their open space program, and they ended up buying a lot of the land in between us and the city. The university also bought a bunch of land there. But now we really have really a beautiful view of just open land horses and cattle running around on there. (And did your wife used to ride her horse on the open space property then? Or was it private still at that time?) Let me see. I think she probably rode on the open space property a little bit, but we had enough property on this side and on the other land that I don't think we needed to ride really too much on open space property. Though I'm sure she did; yeah. Yeah. (And a couple of years ago, I understand you donated a conservation easement to the city in exchange for ) Oh, okay. Many years ago, when we first built a house, we looked all around for where various things could go, and we discovered that there was one little corner of our land on the northwest corner, halfway down to the bottom of the hill, where there was a place that we could drill a well. There was a fault that ran through there, and as long as the well was on the north side of the fault, we would be able to get a good well. So we built a well quite a ways away from the house, halfway down the hill. And whenever we needed anything on that well in the early days we just called the rancher there, and he'd say, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah; I've got cattle there; make sure you shut the gate. And that was about all, because.and then the trucks would drive out there. After the City of Boulder bought that land for their open space, when we needed to work on the well, we called the City of Boulder, because they owned the land now, and we knew that. We assumed that they would say, "Oh, yeah, we have some cattle there and " (Shut the gate.) And they said, "No, no, no, you can't cross that. That's not allowed. We'll have our lawyers draw you up a contract where you can pay us for crossing the land and stuff" or something like that. And we said, "What! Listen, our house is out of water, and we need water right now." And they said, "Well, these things take time," and all that. So I said, "Don't worry about it, I'll just bulldoze a road down the side of the hill." Because that would be a terrible eyesore for the City of Boulder. OH 1917V, Robert Matheson, page 12 of 18

13 "Wait, wait, wait a minute, I think we can do this a little bit faster than that." So they gave us a temporary easement. We picked the well on that side. We had talked about, in exchange for a permanent easement through there, we would not build any houses on the south side of the hill I mean on the north side of the hill the area where I was going to (Bulldoze your ) And of course I wouldn't have done that. And it doesn't really, in my mind, it didn't make any sense to have any houses down there either, at any time. It just wasn't the right use of the hill. So we talked about that, and they drew some stuff up, and they sent me a contract. And this is well after the well had been done had been fixed. And when I looked at the contract, I said, "Wow, this is a lot more involved than I thought." Instead of just not building any houses, they're not even letting me cut any trees on that side of the hill without permission from (Oh, interesting.) Yeah, and I said, "That's really overbearing." And they said, "Well, that's the contract." And I said, "I'll have to think about this." So I thought about it for about six months. 40:06 And then they called me again. They said, "Yeah, we've come up with a contract that's not quite so bad, and it just means you can't build any houses out there. And I said, "Sounds good to me." So we did that, and that's been fine. But I will say and so we haven't had any other trouble with the City of Boulder, and I really love the Open Space Program where huge beneficiary so I'm not saying anything bad about the program in general But they are a little bit controlling, to the point where they actually, when we need to bring trucks in for maintenance on the well, I have to give them a call, so that they can actually stake out the route that they want our trucks to follow. They need to survey the route and then stake it out in accordance to the plans that we agreed on. And I've got to say that's weird! [laughter] But, I mean, okay. (But you do have a permanent easement now that allows you to get from Cherryvale Road to the well?) OH 1917V, Robert Matheson, page 13 of 18

14 Yeah. (Talk to me a little bit about the wildlife that you see on your property or the surrounding open space.) Ah! The wildlife is neat. Until a month ago, we had a dog up here, a nice big dog. And he died. And that's a really sad story, but. But in any case, he would keep a lot of the wildlife out of his territory around here. Lots of coyotes, lots of deer, and pretty much all kinds of deer on those. This year, we haven't see so many coyote. I don't know if there are not so many around or what is going on. Lots of rabbits. I'm a gardener and there are gardens all around here, and I don't know what it's going to be like this year without Congo around, because he kept the rabbits out of our gardens. But lots of coyotes, lots of deer. Once we had elk up here, a small group of elk up here, once. Congo likes to chase the deer away, and he tried to chase the elk away and ended up getting within about twenty feet of them before he realized they weren't running and matter of fact they were moving in his direction. So he [chuckles] he ran back to the house real fast with the elk after him. Then in terms of hawks and eagles lots of hawks and eagles. Occasionally, we thought that maybe they might nest on some of these trees, because we've seen them set down there for a while. I remember once one of our pine trees, they sat down in that, and it was only a matter of probably ten minutes before the magpies had gathered a group of about twenty magpies to fly to the tree and chase them all away chase the eagle away. So, magpies are not my favorite birds, just because they are noisy. (They ARE noisy.) They're kind of like crows. But the hawks and the eagles are beautiful and often we see them flying around. (So, when I asked you about the cell towers which what I'm claiming is to the north, as I drive down Cherryvale, I will frequently look for the golden eagles that will perch on that big tower.) Okay, that's the big tower. And I was sitting out on my north patio once oh, this was about a year ago watching the eagles on top of the big tower. And there was an eagle up there. And then, I was doing something else, I was reading at the time, I guess. But I saw the eagle fly down from the tower in front of me and go in a straight line all the way down the hill to behind the houses on the other side of Cherryvale and pick up something off the ground. (Oh, my!) It must have been at least a half a mile away, maybe a mile away even. It's clear that that eagle saw a rabbit or something like that, maybe a prairie dog, and made a beeline all the way, straight line, and picked it up on the ground and flew off with it. I had no idea that their eyesight was that good. OH 1917V, Robert Matheson, page 14 of 18

15 (Well, that was a good find.) Yeah. 45:09 (I guess the last thing I might ask you about is maybe some of your neighbors. Some of the there's a row of houses to the south of you to the bottom of the hill how well you know any of those folks and ) Oh, you know, actually, we do not know those folks well. When we were keeping the horses down there, we knew them very well, partly because they had teenage kids, grade school kids, and they all wanted to come over and look at the horses and play with the horses and stuff. Sometimes would let them ride the horses. So we knew a number of them well, and of course, Joanna's down there [Joanna Sampson], and she's the real historian of this area. She's gone now, but, oh yeah, we knew Joanna very well. A good friend for many years. There's Paul Sivley [?] down on the corner, and there are some people we know back in the old neighborhood where Lyle Edland [?] lived. But we drive past these houses and we really don't see them very much. So (What about what's now a house to the west of you on the west side of Cherryvale. Was that not the old school?) Oh, yes. We know of that guy rather than actually knowing him. Many years ago, before that was really fixed up into the I understand now fairly neat house that he built there I understand that he knows all about computers and stuff. And he's kind of made a person-friendly house that recognizes when you walk into rooms and put the lines on and something. I understand that that's how that. I don't know more about that. But in any case, back in the early days, there were oh, it was kind of a hippie commune almost for a while. There were people living in that, three or four people living maybe five or six people. And they were all away at one time, and my wife was out riding her horse down in that area and saw that the place was on fire. (Oh, no!) So we were the ones that turned in the alarm and got the fire department out here to put out the fire and save the building. (So was that the original location of the school?) No, that was almost the original location. And there were things like, there were actually mine shafts under the building that the kids in bad whether the kids could actually go from the school building into the mines and walk under the mines to somewhere close to their houses OH 1917V, Robert Matheson, page 15 of 18

16 where they wouldn't have to walk up in the bad weather. I don't know whether I believe that or not, but I've heard that a number of times. And when the current owner bought that place, he was aware that there were a lot of mine shafts underneath his building underneath the old school building. He moved it back, I think, thirty or forty or fifty feet back away from the highway, so that he wouldn't be living with the danger of the mines collapsing directly under his house. So it's almost in the same spot. And he was very careful about not changing the outside of the school building, so it very much looks like a school building. (So that was the old Marshall School?) That was the old Marshall School. (Okay. Okay. Well, Bob, tell me, is there anything else that you would like to share with us today. I'm looking over some of the notes here that you and I pulled together.) Let's see, what have I forgotten? (I think we've covered everything on your sheet here.) Okay. (Anything else about the mining, your experience with the mining or the open space?) 49:26 No. No, but this is certainly a neat place to see all the mines down there. One of the things I noticed in this titled document was an agreement with the Fox Patterson Mine, which was the mine directly to the north of us, on the down side of the hill. And that was a fairly large and a fairly modern mine, and I was under the impression that that was the only mine that had attempted anything like longwall mining, where they have a machine that takes the coal away from the face of the rock and then it takes all the coal out and leaves the mine to collapse behind the coal. So they can essentially get a hundred percent of the coal out. Whereas on the mines the way they were done here, I think they got actually less than 50 percent of the coal out, because they had to leave the rest of the coal and supporting columns to hold up the roof. Someone told me at one time that they had used actually some longwall mining techniques there, and it had been unsuccessful, and they had actually collapsed the roofline of the mine on the machinery there. They had to leave the machinery down there. Again that's a I've got no confirmation on that, but I did hear that once about the Fox Patterson Mine. And as I was going through the documents here, I noticed that Fox was one of the persons who was mentioned all the time. They owned this land here, and (I think I remember reading they were Welsh. Does that ring a bell with you?) OH 1917V, Robert Matheson, page 16 of 18

17 They easily could have been. Yup. Yup. It was clear from these documents that the height of the coal mining was right around 1920 or something like that. Now this land here sold for this forty acres of land back then sold for more than $27,000, which is more than we paid for the land in 1960 or so. But all during the thirties and forties, the major thing you saw in here was the landowners reclaiming the mines back from a tax sale for not paying taxes on it. So this land was worth very little during the thirties and forties. Just grazing land, and there was no coal mining going on at the time. The last coal mining that was going on around here was a little coal mine across the ditch there, just south of Highway 170. (Was that 1936 or so? Something like that? Or it was later?) This was like '55. They had a small two-man operation. They reopened one of the mines and were selling coal to the university, as I understand it. And they kept it open for a couple of years before they stopped mining. (Which is interesting, since it's not the greatest of coal, that they would still be using that that late.) Yeah, that is surprising. (So, I did have one other question I wanted to ask you about the kind of evolution of the house design. One thing I had read about the basement was that your son had helped design ) Oh, yeah. He was we redid the bathroom down there this last time. And there was a great it was just an old design, and I really want to change it I didn't like it. So I started designing it myself, of course. I sent some designs to Edward, because he was trained as an architect and did some neat stuff. But he said, "Bob, that's terrible. That really won't " And I said, "No, I've got these plans of it, and I've got the drawing of the floor plan and all that." And he says, "It looks good on a floor plan, but those curves won't look good when they are standing up in three dimensions." And so he actually built me some models of it and cut a hole inside the model "Here's the doorway," and all that. And I said, "That looks terrible, yeah!" So I had to accept his advice and change the design. It looks neat now. (And so there's a library in the center. Is that correct?) Yeah. Yeah. OH 1917V, Robert Matheson, page 17 of 18

18 (Okay. All right. Well can you think of anything else you want to add for us today?) No, except it really has been fun being part of the history of this area and reading about all the I remember going down to the coal mine the Bureau of Coal Mine Management when I was trying to get plans for for where all the coal mines were. And I remember seeing a drawing of the whole valley here, of where all the coal mines were, where the railroads were, and the towns, and I thought, wow! I sure wish I could get a copy of that drawing. But it was probably an 8 by 10 foot drawing or something. A huge, composite drawing. And they said, "Oh, we can give you a copy of that, no problem." At the time it being about a dollar a square foot to copy it, and that'd be $80 or $100, back when money was worth a lot, and I never did it. But that was one regret that I with that all these things I've gotten to. (Especially since so much of the evidence is missing now. You know, all the structures have been taken down.) Yeah. (Well, thank you very much. This has been quite enjoyable.) Very good. Thank you. 56:09 [End of interview] OH 1917V, Robert Matheson, page 18 of 18

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